Episode 19 - The Criminal Lawyer
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Transcript
0:00:00 - (Nicole): This episode of bring your kid to work is brought to you by Lioness Media.
0:00:04 - (Nicole): It's time to bring your kid to work. Hey everyone.
0:00:08 - (Nicole): It's time to bring your kid to work. It's the family podcast that explores the world of work through the eyes of parents and their kids. Each week, we interview one parent and their child to chat about what they do for work, what they like, what they don't like, and how they got there in the first place. Let's find out who we're talking to today. Our two guests today are Laura and her son, Oskar. Laura Reece is a criminal defence barrister.
0:00:35 - (Nicole): That means she's a lawyer for people who have been accused of a crime and are going to court to defend themselves. Laura started practicing law with legal aid Queensland in 2005. Since 2017, though, she's been in private law practice and has appeared for defendants in criminal courts all over Queensland, often traveling to regional and really remote communities. She's someone who is experienced in going to trial for clients and she believes strongly in the fundamental principle of criminal justice, and that's the right to a fair trial.
0:01:08 - (Nicole): The majority of criminal defence barristers are still men, so Laura works hard to welcome and mentor younger women that come into the profession. Now that he's older, her son Oskar is keenly aware of the challenges her job presents and how stressful it can be when a big trial is coming up. He's more inclined towards science than the law and thinks he might be an engineer in his future. These two were fantastic to chat with, honest and open and full of heart.
0:01:35 - (Nicole): Thanks to the bring your kid to.
0:01:37 - (Nicole): Work community on Facebook. We'll also have a bonus episode with Laura later in the season to answer all the burning questions that the Facebook community had about criminal lawyers. What a treat you're in for. Let's get on with the welcome.
0:01:52 - (Nicole): Welcome, both of you, to bring your kid to work. I'm very excited to welcome two very special guests and I was hoping that maybe my first special guest would like to introduce himself and tell us a little bit about himself. So go right ahead first special guest.
0:02:07 - (Oskar): My name is Oskar. I'm twelve years old. We've lived in Australia my whole life, but we travel overseas quite often and I really like dogs and Lego. We have a small cavalier King Charles Poodle called Duplo. He's very cute. Yes.
0:02:27 - (Nicole): That is a brilliant introduction. Thank you, Oskar. It's so great to have you with us.
0:02:32 - (Oskar): All the important points.
0:02:33 - (Nicole): Yeah, you hit all the good stuff. Oh, one thing. School. You're in high school, right?
0:02:39 - (Oskar): Yes, high school? Yeah.
0:02:41 - (Nicole): And so you're about to go into grade eight next year.
0:02:47 - (Oskar): Eight? Yes.
0:02:48 - (Laura): He might even find a hat. He lost five this year.
0:02:54 - (Oskar): I'm not sure. A large number?
0:02:56 - (Nicole): No!! That's a lot of hats, Oskar.
0:03:00 - (Laura): A lot of hats.
0:03:01 - (Oskar): Yeah.
0:03:03 - (Nicole): Well, you know what? You've made other kids very happy, because clearly they have “found” hats.
0:03:07 - (Oskar): Yeah.
0:03:08 - (Oskar): “Oh, mum, I found a hat. Like, I don't know, the uniform shop is giving them away.”
0:03:14 - (Laura): Yeah, they do that.
0:03:16 - (Nicole): It's magic.
0:03:17 - (Oskar): Don't mind the name on it. That doesn't matter.
0:03:20 - (Nicole): It's meaningless. Meaningless! Oh, my goodness. That's hilarious. And you brought someone with you. Who did you bring with you on Bring your kid to work?
0:03:29 - (Oskar): Oh, I don't know. She's not important. Laura. Laura Reece
0:03:35 - (Nicole): Laura. Hey, Laura.
0:03:37 - (Laura): Hello. Glad to be here.
0:03:39 - (Oskar): Yeah, I'm glad to be here, too.
0:03:41 - (Nicole): Thank you both. It's very exciting to chat to you. And this episode of bring your kid to work is called the criminal lawyer. And that's because that's what your mum does, right, Oskar?
0:03:52 - (Oskar): Yes, she's a criminal lawyer.
0:03:54 - (Nicole): What does she do all day long.
0:03:56 - (Oskar): On her normal workday? I know that she has to read. A lot of files about what some of the people has done and stuff like that. She has to sometimes go to the prison or something to talk to her clients to figure out what kind of sentence would be best for them and would suit them most if they're pleading guilty. Yeah, and if they're pleading guilty or Not, because sometimes they think that they're not guilty, but they have solid proof that they are guilty. And Mama has said, you need to plead guilty and they don't.
0:04:35 - (Oskar): Yeah.
0:04:37 - (Laura): They're welcome to accept or not accept my advice. But that's a big part of what we do, is we tell people when we think they're most likely going to Be convicted for sure.
0:04:47 - (Nicole): Yes, because you have to give good advice if you're a lawyer, right?
0:04:50 - (Laura): That's the idea, yeah.
0:04:52 - (Oskar): That's the entire point.
0:04:54 - (Laura): Do you know how I figure out. Whether people might be found guilty or not guilty? What is it that I'm reading?
0:05:00 - (Oskar): Evidence.
0:05:01 - (Laura): That's it.
0:05:02 - (Oskar): Nice one.
0:05:03 - (Nicole): Nice. So that, Laura, sound like a pretty good explanation of a reasonable day in your life, or is there more to it that we need to know?
0:05:11 - (Laura): Well, there's probably, like, the next bit, which is what happens when those decisions have been made. And that's that. I go to court.
0:05:17 - (Oskar): Yes, in court, she has to present the evidence and present reasons why a client is guilty or not guilty and talk about what sentence they should get and why should they should get it? For what reasons?
0:05:32 - (Laura): Absolutely.
0:05:34 - (Oskar): This person did this, but they were under the effect of alcohol while they did it, so they weren't thinking properly. I don't know if that.
0:05:43 - (Oskar): Yeah.
0:05:44 - (Laura): So that's definitely very often I say that, but it's quite interesting because that's not an excuse. You don't get away with things just because you've had drugs or alcohol. But sometimes what it can tell the judge is when that person isn't drinking or taking drugs, they act like that. So the judge might think if we make a sentence where we try to help them not drink or take drugs, maybe they won't commit that kind of Crime again and so that they'll be safe to go back into the community. That's right. Spot on.
0:06:16 - (Nicole): That's a brilliant explaining, Oskar. I'm very impressed.
0:06:19 - (Oskar): Thank you.
0:06:20 - (Nicole): But, Laura, it sounds like you have a lot of reading to do.
0:06:25 - (Oskar): Yeah.
0:06:26 - (Nicole): And you have to talk to your clients and do you interview your clients and things like that before a court case goes ahead?
0:06:34 - (Laura): Yeah, absolutely.
0:06:35 - (Oskar): She does that at prison sometimes, right? Yeah.
0:06:38 - (Laura): Or if they're on bail, which means they're being charged, but they're allowed to stay home on special rules, then I might meet them in my chambers or at a solicitor's office or sometimes under a tree.
0:06:54 - (Nicole): Interesting.
0:06:55 - (Laura): In Aurukun, for example, because you just do what you got to do.
0:07:00 - (Oskar): Speaking from personal experience, that's funny.
0:07:04 - (Laura): But a conference is a really important thing where a lawyer talks to their client and we say, look, this is.
0:07:12 - (Oskar): What you're charged with.
0:07:13 - (Laura): This is what the evidence is. This is what we think might happen. What can you tell me about what happened? Because they might be able to say That's not what happened. This is what happened. And that might change things. And then we give them advice about what we think they should do, but we never decide for them. It's always their call.
0:07:30 - (Nicole): Yeah. And so you have clients that come to you who have been charged with a crime, so not just someone who's done a speeding fine or things like that, it's actually someone who might have been charged with a bigger kind of crime. And then when you go to court for them, don't you have to wear the wig thing and the big black?
0:07:53 - (Oskar): Is that still a thing?
0:07:54 - (Laura): Oh, yeah.
0:07:56 - (Oskar): Like horse hair wigs that have curls in them.
0:07:59 - (Oskar): They're really weird.
0:08:00 - (Oskar): Mama has a really old one from Huey who used to be a judge. I'm not sure in what level of the court.
0:08:08 - (Laura): District court.
0:08:09 - (Oskar): District court. And it's, like, really old.
0:08:12 - (Laura): Before he was a judge, he was a barrister. So he became a barrister in 1970 and got a horse hair wig from Chancery Lane in London, which is where.
0:08:23 - (Oskar): All of the wigs and legal stuff used to be made.
0:08:26 - (Laura): That's right. The legal district of London. And I've got that wig now. So I have a wig that is 50, very old, 53 years old. It's pretty old.
0:08:38 - (Oskar): Wow.
0:08:38 - (Nicole): And why do they make you wear those?
0:08:41 - (Laura): It's tradition. Lots of states across the country don't do it anymore. Queensland has really just held onto it. So in Western Australia, no one wears a wig anymore. A lot of jurisdictions, and in fact, a lot of the family court, they don't wear them, but we still wear them. They're still part of the tradition in crime in Queensland. They come from a time when lots of people wore wigs, when people wore wigs in parliament, in sort of high society, basically, anyone who was above a certain level, perhaps, very class based system, obviously, then, and people who were sort of upper class men would wear wigs in their everyday job, even.
0:09:28 - (Oskar): Wow.
0:09:29 - (Laura): And the law has retained it. There are barristers wigs, there are judges wigs, and there are a couple of other different kind of weeks which really only get worn for ceremonies now. But even until fairly recently, wigs were worn in some parliaments still for, like, the clerk of the parliament.
0:09:48 - (Nicole): Yeah.
0:09:49 - (Laura): So it's just a throwback to an earlier time. It's pretty silly in many ways, but one thing that it does is it helps reinforce that we all have a different role in court. It's a funny technicality in the law, but the barristers are the only ones who are actually allowed to speak in court. And the bar table and the judge. Everyone else who speaks needs to be invited to speak, whereas we have the right of appearance and the wig designates. That or denotes that. So people tell stories. It doesn't really happen so much anymore, but people tell stories about people arriving at court, perhaps having forgotten their wig, and the judge saying, I can't hear you because.
0:10:36 - (Oskar): A bit cruel.
0:10:37 - (Nicole): Yeah.
0:10:38 - (Laura): Because they weren't properly dressed for very, very formal.
0:10:44 - (Nicole): Oskar would never have been heard because he keeps losing his hat all the time.
0:10:49 - (Oskar): He does.
0:10:51 - (Laura): People have joked with me before because I have curly hair that really all I need to do is dye my hair and I'd be fine, which is hilarious. But one of the funny things about having an old wig like mine is that I think it gave me a slight advantage when I was a baby barrister in that people look at your wig. And they think, oh, she's been around A while, even though she basically hasn't back then I have been around a while now, but I hadn't then. And if you have a bright white, snowy wig, everyone knows you've just started out. So I never had that.
0:11:26 - (Oskar): It's great.
0:11:27 - (Nicole): It's like turning up to a building site with fresh steel caps. You can't do it. You got to have them dirty.
0:11:32 - (Oskar): Absolutely.
0:11:34 - (Laura): First day on the job, mate, that kind of thing. And actually, as junior lawyers, we're often acting for people who've been in trouble a lot longer than we've been practicing law. I remember once, as a very junior solicitor, going in to see a man in the cells in the Roma street watch house, and I said, I'm a Duty lawyer, I'm here to talk to you.
Do you want to apply for bail? And he said, love, I've been applying for bail since before you were born. I'm not getting bail today. And he was right, he had. He had been applying for bail for longer than I'd been alive, and he definitely wasn't getting bail. So when you're really junior. You have To toe this line or walk this line of knowing that you don't know everything, but projecting a certain amount of confidence so that people actually have confidence In you a little bit.
0:12:30 - (Nicole): Fake it till you make it. But also, you’ve got to know your stuff.
0:12:33 - (Oskar): That's right.
0:12:35 - (Oskar): Said stuff like, this person did a crime back in 2013, so the crime has been done quite a while ago and they've been in the cell for quite a long time or something.
0:12:47 - (Laura): That would be pretty unusual to be not dealt with for ten years. There's often a big delay because things take time. Yeah, a couple of years, for sure. Sometimes. Particularly if they're facing the murder charge.
0:13:00 - (Oskar): Or something like that.
0:13:02 - (Laura): Generally speaking, there's a concept in the law that justice delayed is justice denied. It doesn't serve anybody for things to take a really, really long time. No, but sometimes it does.
0:13:15 - (Nicole): That's very true.
0:13:16 - (Oskar): Yeah.
0:13:17 - (Nicole): Sometimes it takes a long time. Speaking of things that take a long time, Oskar, how long did it take.
0:13:23 - (Oskar): Your mum to become a barrister?
0:13:26 - (Nicole): Do you know how long that takes?
0:13:28 - (Oskar): I think it would probably be around, like, 15 years. Not quite.
0:13:33 - (Laura): So I studied for seven years. Yeah, should have taken five. But I did a lovely honours year in German and history, partly because my university was interrupted, partly because I went on exchange to Germany and met this Swedish guy who is the reason why we travel overseas so much. Right, Oskar? So I met, who was a Swedish exchange student, and I was an Australian exchange student in Germany. And the way that law degrees worked at the time was that you had whole year subjects, and so if you went to Germany on exchange halfway through a year, then everything kind of got pushed back.
0:14:12 - (Laura): So it really should have taken me six years to do an arts degree, honours with my law degree, but it basically took six and then one year part time. And then I came and worked for a judge over here for Huey, my uncle, which was a bit of a thing then, that people employed there in their relatives, and it was a great experience for me. But the rules have been changed now to make sure that people can get those kind of jobs without having to have a dad or a mum or an auntie or uncle.
0:14:47 - (Laura): But I learned a lot from him. And then I worked at legal aid for a few years as a legal officer.
0:14:53 - (Oskar): I remember those years. They were very stressful.
0:14:56 - (Laura): Oh, do you? That was probably before you were born.
0:14:59 - (Oskar): No. You were in legal aid while we were born.
0:15:03 - (Laura): For a bit, yeah. But not when I was a legal officer, so that means I wasn't a barrister yet.
0:15:09 - (Oskar): I remember when she was a barrister in legal aid.
0:15:12 - (Laura): Yeah.
0:15:12 - (Oskar): There was a lot of stuff happening then.
0:15:14 - (Laura): Do you ever remember a time when. My job hasn't been stressful, though?
0:15:18 - (Oskar): No. Maybe like a week or so during Christmas. But apart from that, not really.
0:15:27 - (Nicole): That sounds like a lot of study and a lot of work to get you to the place where you get to be a barrister but isn't. I heard something about the bar. What does that mean? Oh, yeah, that's not where you go and get your drink, your pink lemonade.
0:15:41 - (Oskar): No, I've joked about that.
0:15:44 - (Laura): It's a very old concept. And the bar goes back to a time when courts were really sort of in development as a place where disputes were worked out as opposed to the court of the king or the ruler of the area. And courts have evolved over a long time, sort of as democracy was evolving as well. And eventually it got to the point where there was this divide in the court between the judge or the decision maker and the lawyers who came to argue, and that was called the bar.
0:16:20 - (Laura): It's like a railing.
0:16:21 - (Nicole): Was it like where you put your horses? Like that kind of bar where they just attached the horse while everybody was still talking?
0:16:28 - (Oskar): Pretty much, yes.
0:16:29 - (Laura): The idea of being called to the bar was that you gained permission to approach that bar and to advocate from the bar on behalf of a client. Right. So that was the concept of the bar. The physical concept. And eventually it became, like the profession or the profession of barristers. So barrister, someone who's called to the bar, that's where it comes from. And solicitors are a different branch of the legal profession.
0:16:59 - (Laura): The bar now describes a group of people who call themselves barristers. And the bar association is our professional organization. You belong to it. They issue us with our practicing certificates.
0:17:15 - (Nicole): Do you have to pass an exam to be a member of the bar?
0:17:19 - (Laura): You do now.
0:17:21 - (Oskar): Also, you sneak exams without having to do an exam.
0:17:23 - (Laura): Sure did. Rules have changed over time. And you do now have to sit a number of exams to then be permitted to sit the bar reader or the bar practice course, which is a six week intensive course where at the end of it, you are entitled to get a certificate to practice as a barrister. And that's then your call to the bar. It all sounds a little bit more sort of ceremonial than it really is. You sign a book and that's it. But you're then presented to court eventually.
0:17:57 - (Laura): Was going to work for legal aid that year, so I decided to do the course because I thought, maybe one day I want to work as a barrister. But I didn't have any work experience at all. I'd worked for a judge for a year. So I worked at legal aid for a couple of years, essentially as a solicitor or a legal officer. And then I got a job as an in house barrister at legal aid. So they employ a number of barristers to do court work for their clients in house.
0:18:25 - (Laura): And that was a wonderful job.
0:18:27 - (Oskar): Yeah. There was also a time when Mama was working for the attorney general. We called her the topsy Turvy general because mama was always coming home very late, like, very late.
0:18:44 - (Nicole): Topsy turvy general?
0:18:45 - (Laura): Yeah. That was a pretty intense year.
0:18:48 - (Oskar): Quite intense.
0:18:50 - (Nicole): So it sounds like mum's had lots of stressful jobs, Oskar, but do you think she likes her job?
0:18:57 - (Oskar): I think she likes her job very much, yeah.
0:19:00 - (Laura): You have asked me whether I like it, haven't you?
0:19:02 - (Oskar): Yeah.
0:19:04 - (Oskar): She mostly says yes. It's very stressful.
0:19:08 - (Nicole): Yeah, well, because people's lives, like, decisions about people's lives, are being made in court and your mum's representing them. I can imagine that can be pretty stressful. Is that something that you're interested in doing when you get big?
0:19:21 - (Oskar): I don't think so. I mean, maybe. But sometimes she comes home talking about things that she's had to talk about in cases which are, like, very brutal and stuff. And sometimes she comes home really sad because her client has just been sentenced to the rest of their life in jail or something.
0:19:39 - (Nicole): Yeah. That's very sad.
0:19:41 - (Laura): I think you have other interests, and you have a really good understanding of things that I really never understood and still find quite hard to understand. So you've got, I think, a scientific mind, and I never really had a scientific mind, or if I did, it has remained latent, dormant.
0:20:03 - (Oskar): Dormant.
0:20:04 - (Laura): Because when you and papa talk about science, particularly physics, which I found conceptually very difficult, I really think Oskar has a greater appreciation even now than I ever did of these sorts of things.
0:20:19 - (Nicole): Yeah. And so, Oskar, if you're not going.
0:20:21 - (Oskar): To be a lawyer, what do you.
0:20:24 - (Nicole): Think you might be interested in doing then, when you get big?
0:20:28 - (Oskar): Some sort of engineering thing, maybe? Like, I used to really want to be an astronaut, but now that I've seen how dangerous going on an EVA is, I'm like, maybe not. Maybe, but maybe not.
0:20:42 - (Laura): What's an EVa?
0:20:44 - (Oskar): Extravehicular activity when you go outside of the spacecraft. Spacewalks repair solar panels.
0:20:51 - (Laura): Just casually go outside the spacecraft.
0:20:54 - (Oskar): It's referred to as an EVA.
0:20:57 - (Oskar): Yeah.
0:20:57 - (Nicole): Just a Saturday walk outside of your spacecraft just for a stroll. So what kind of engineering, then, are you thinking? Mechanical engineering or structural engineering or sound engineering?
0:21:09 - (Oskar): I think mechanical. I'm not sure, though.
0:21:12 - (Nicole): You like to build stuff?
0:21:14 - (Oskar): Yes.
0:21:15 - (Laura): I love Lego, technical Lego in particular.
0:21:19 - (Oskar): At home, I made a crossbow that if you could get a motor, it could be automated, shooting out little pellets.
0:21:32 - (Laura): Of Lego, like one by threes.
0:21:34 - (Oskar): It can shoot tiny one by threes.
0:21:38 - (Oskar): Wow. That's cool.
0:21:41 - (Nicole): That would scare the dog, though.
0:21:42 - (Oskar): It doesn't shoot very far.
0:21:44 - (Nicole): So, Oskar, if you're going to be an engineer, how much school do you have to do to do that, then?
0:21:48 - (Oskar): I'm not sure, because I don't really know some jobs.
0:21:52 - (Oskar): I know some jobs that use mechanical engineering in them, but I'm not sure all of them. And which ones require more school time or what.
0:22:02 - (Laura): I reckon you'd probably have to do a uni degree to do mechanical engineering, but there are probably some jobs that are associated with it where you might do a taste course or even on the job training. But I think to be any kind of engineer, I think you have to go to university. In that world, there's just so many different options.
0:22:26 - (Oskar): Yeah.
0:22:27 - (Nicole): That's so exciting. I can't wait to see what you do with that. That's great. And so at school, you're year eight coming up.
0:22:36 - (Oskar): Yes.
0:22:36 - (Nicole): What do you love most about school?
0:22:39 - (Oskar): I really liked, and still do like science, because sometimes we get to do fun practicals. And the lessons are just more interesting in general than doing algebra or something.
0:22:54 - (Laura): I think you also this year had a really great teacher, didn't you?
0:22:58 - (Oskar): I did have a very good teacher this year. Makes a big difference. Interesting.
0:23:02 - (Nicole): Yeah, it does.
0:23:04 - (Laura): Someone who I think really liked inspiring kids to learn and find things that they're interested in.
0:23:14 - (Oskar): That's pretty cool. Teachers are pretty important.
0:23:18 - (Nicole): Teachers are pretty important when you're not at school. Oskar, apart from Lego, what other things do you love? What else do you do with your time?
0:23:28 - (Oskar): I like to play this game on my computer called, it's like, it's a simulation of a solar system, and you can build spacecraft and different vehicles and fly them around and stuff.
0:23:45 - (Laura): When Oskar first started playing this game.
0:23:46 - (Oskar): Nicole, it was a destruction simulation.
0:23:49 - (Laura): He mostly just made spaceships and then flew them into things and blew them up. But now it's a little bit more trial and error in terms of engine design and specs and what kind of.
0:24:03 - (Oskar): Delta v. You need to get to a different part of the solar system and when the transfer window will be so that you can get to the other planet with more efficiency.
0:24:15 - (Nicole): Wow.
0:24:16 - (Oskar): So.
0:24:19 - (Laura): It'S quite an engaging game, but it's a big space simulator, effectively.
0:24:25 - (Oskar): I love it.
0:24:26 - (Nicole): But I can understand why exploding things in space would be fun.
0:24:29 - (Oskar): Yes, it is very fun. I've also found that you can break the game to make the fireworks launcher, launch them at many times the speed of light, to use them as rockets instead of what they're intended for.
0:24:49 - (Laura): It's a game hack.
0:24:52 - (Nicole): Excellent stuff.
0:24:53 - (Laura): Oskar does like gaming generally, but like many families, there are rules about how much he's allowed to do of that.
0:25:02 - (Oskar): I also like nerf guns and I'm going to try and modify them, taking out different things, hacks in real life.
0:25:11 - (Nicole): Not just in computer.
0:25:13 - (Oskar): Yeah.
0:25:16 - (Laura): We'Re trying to plan an epic gun battle while we're over on holiday, Western Australia, with the kids of some of my friends.
0:25:25 - (Oskar): Yeah, we're going to go to South.
0:25:27 - (Nicole): Beach or something nice.
0:25:30 - (Laura): Hide behind trees and ambush people. That sounds amazing. That would be really fun.
0:25:39 - (Oskar): Yeah.
0:25:40 - (Nicole): And I was wondering, Oskar, your mum hasn't been a lawyer for her whole life. When she was like at high school, did she have a first job that.
0:25:49 - (Oskar): Wasn'T being a lawyer?
0:25:51 - (Oskar): No, I'm not sure if I remember.
0:25:53 - (Laura): I think the first paid work I did was.
0:25:56 - (Oskar): Oh, yes, yes, I remember that you talked about babysitting, that you did a lot of babysitting for a while. I did, but I'm not sure about anything. Else I don't think.
0:26:03 - (Laura): Do you remember me telling you that I also then used to work at a pottery gallery in Fremantle on a Sunday?
0:26:10 - (Oskar): Yes, I do remember that.
0:26:12 - (Laura): So the lady I worked for, she was a potter, but one of the lovely things that she did was she had a little gallery shop where she would sell the work of other potters who had been her students or her mentees. And so I used to sell their pottery and my friends would rollerblade down and buy me a 30 cent ice cream from maccas, which was nearby.
0:26:34 - (Oskar): Wow.
0:26:35 - (Laura): Because it was the people rollerbladed everywhere, obviously.
0:26:40 - (Nicole): Yeah. Those who were able to.
0:26:43 - (Laura): That's. Well, yeah, not me. They were my first two jobs.
0:26:47 - (Nicole): Yeah, right.
0:26:48 - (Oskar): I also like going to scouts.
0:26:51 - (Oskar): You do like going to scouts.
0:26:53 - (Laura): Actually, it's funny you should say that because those mates who used to roll a blade down to buy me an ice cream, they were my scouting friends.
0:27:00 - (Oskar): Yeah. Mama used to do sea scouts. I don't do sea scouts. I do normal scouts.
0:27:06 - (Nicole): Yeah. And what do you love about that, Oskar?
0:27:08 - (Oskar): It's fun to just. It's usually on Monday nights to just.
0:27:13 - (Oskar): Do something fun with friends.
0:27:14 - (Oskar): Usually we play some sort of game, as in running around game first and then some sort of activity. Tonight we're going to do square lashing or.
0:27:26 - (Laura): Square lashing.
0:27:26 - (Oskar): That's really. Build a fortress out of spare wood that's underneath the den.
0:27:31 - (Laura): Or you did that activity recently where the other scout leader came and did a whittling activity.
0:27:38 - (Oskar): Oh, yeah.
0:27:38 - (Laura): That was really fun.
0:27:39 - (Oskar): Yes.
0:27:41 - (Nicole): That does sound fun.
0:27:42 - (Oskar): And you learn how to can you.
0:27:45 - (Nicole): Get to do stuff in real life with scouts and with legos and with your nerf guns, and then you get to do simulation stuff with the game that you love to play the most.
0:27:54 - (Oskar): That's a really good.
0:27:55 - (Oskar): Yeah.
0:27:56 - (Oskar): Yeah.
0:27:57 - (Oskar): Astrid doesn't like the Nerf guns at all. My sister Astrid hates the Nerf guns.
0:28:02 - (Nicole): I wonder why.
0:28:04 - (Laura): It's possibly because every now and then she's the victim of nerf gun attack.
0:28:08 - (Oskar): Every now and then. Not very often. It's less often than she thinks it is.
0:28:15 - (Oskar): Yeah.
0:28:15 - (Nicole): But she's anticipating that it's coming, so it's the worst.
0:28:19 - (Oskar): But it's not mostly.
0:28:22 - (Laura): You do sometimes surprise shoot us nerve gun.
0:28:25 - (Oskar): Yeah.
0:28:25 - (Oskar): Well, that surprises me as well because I'm not the one meaning to shoot.
0:28:29 - (Laura): Oh, it's an accident. It's an accident. I just accidentally shot you with a nerve gun.
0:28:37 - (Oskar): Yeah. It's an honest mistake.
0:28:41 - (Nicole): Yeah, I'm sure. Look, I believe you. I mean, I'm not a criminal barrister.
0:28:46 - (Oskar): I wouldn't defend you to the end.
0:28:49 - (Nicole): Don't worry.
0:28:52 - (Oskar): And Oskar.
0:28:53 - (Nicole): So if mum had jobs babysitting and at the pottery gallery as her first jobs, what do you think your first jobs might be when you get a part time job?
0:29:03 - (Oskar): I'm not sure. Find a cafe to work at, something like that, just to make a bit of money.
0:29:13 - (Nicole): So mum can be the barrister and you can be the barista.
0:29:16 - (Oskar): Yeah.
0:29:19 - (Nicole): No one's ever made that joke before.
0:29:22 - (Laura): No, I never heard that before. You could also get a job at, like, a supermarket, stacking shelves or pulling trolleys around a car park. All these things that people do when they're wanting to make some extra money when they're young.
0:29:39 - (Nicole): That's a great idea.
0:29:41 - (Oskar): And what do you think Laura, is.
0:29:43 - (Nicole): The best thing about being a criminal lawyer? What do you like best about your job?
0:29:50 - (Laura): My job's always interesting. There's never one date that's the same as the next.
0:29:57 - (Oskar): She always.
0:29:59 - (Laura): And I think that's good for me.
0:30:01 - (Oskar): Personality monotonous.
0:30:03 - (Laura): That's right. And also, I like helping people. And the legal system, very scary place for people who are not used to it. I'm so used to it now. And also I have the advantage when I go to court of not being the person in trouble. But it's a system I'm very familiar with, and I feel like I can help people. I can help guide people through what can be a very hard time for them. And I suppose if I think about it a little more carefully, I've always enjoyed advocacy. So being in a position to argue for somebody, to advocate, a position to say, this is what I think should happen, or to explain something about someone, and that's a really enjoyable experience because it's very interactive. When you're talking to a judge or a jury, you're really engaging and you're choosing how to speak to them, how to approach something, how to explain it, and I really love that.
0:31:02 - (Oskar): So that sounds like that's a good.
0:31:04 - (Nicole): Job for you, Laura. Oskar, what do you think makes a good job?
0:31:10 - (Oskar): It has to be not the same.
0:31:12 - (Oskar): Thing over and over and over again. So you're not constantly getting bored of the same thing. It has to have decent enough pay, obviously, and you have to be interested in it. You can't just be something that you're forced into, then that would be boring.
0:31:27 - (Laura): Yeah. I think if you're doing something that you don't enjoy, work can be very hard. And we spend quite a bit of our life at work, so finding something that you enjoy or is satisfying or. Well, that's a great thing.
0:31:42 - (Nicole): As a criminal lawyer, some days are very hard. What's a really hard day look like for you, Laura?
0:31:50 - (Laura): So I went to the detention center last Saturday to speak to my client, and she's quite young and she's not going home for Christmas. And you talk to a child at this time of year and normally you're talking to them about Santa or what do you want for Christmas? Or what are you doing for the holidays? And the reality for some kids is quite different. And no matter what you think of what they've done, that's quite a stark reality.
0:32:18 - (Laura): And it makes you feel pretty sad. And sometimes probably the limits of what we can really achieve as lawyers are brought home to us when our arguments aren't accepted, that's a bad outcome for our client. That either means more jail or it means they're being found guilty by a jury. Sometimes you work harder than you thought you could and you still don't achieve what you'd hoped to. You can kind of feel like, is it really worth it?
0:32:44 - (Laura): Particularly when you know that it also takes a toll on your family. And so you have to regroup and think about things and then move on. But those days are hard.
0:32:56 - (Oskar): Yes. Hard for everyone.
0:32:58 - (Laura): Yeah. And then other days you feel like you're on a high because you've worked really hard and it did work.
0:33:04 - (Oskar): Those are the good days when mum comes home happy.
0:33:09 - (Nicole): Yeah, I bet. Oskar. And so on the hard days, Oskar, when mum comes home, do you guys try and rally around, like, being good colleagues, but being good kids and family, is that what you guys do?
0:33:24 - (Oskar): Good hugs? Good hugs.
0:33:26 - (Laura): Yeah, they do give very good hugs.
0:33:28 - (Nicole): Good hugs always help, for sure. And Laura, was it something that you always wanted to do, be a lawyer?
0:33:36 - (Oskar): No, I think she wanted to be in the foreign affairs.
0:33:40 - (Laura): Yeah, that's right.
0:33:41 - (Oskar): Department or something like that for a.
0:33:43 - (Laura): While, yeah, I wanted to be a diplomat. I loved languages and I've always loved history and international affairs and politics. So when I was in high school, I think I thought I'd like to do that job. After I graduated, I did apply to be a diplomat and I did some exams. And then I went and had an interview in Canberra, where we had to do, like, a practice negotiation. And it was all very exciting, but I didn't end up getting that job.
0:34:12 - (Laura): And they gave me some really interesting feedback, which probably showed that I wasn't very well suited to being a diplomat. Wow.
0:34:21 - (Nicole): Thank you very much for being an awesome guest on bring your kid to work.
0:34:25 - (Oskar): Oskar, thank you for having me.
0:34:26 - (Nicole): What a pleasure. Laura, thank you so much for your time and for being on bring your kid to work. It's been just such a privilege to hear someone who's so passionate about their job and explaining things for us. Really appreciate it.
0:34:39 - (Laura): I've loved being part of it and I think it's a great project.
0:34:43 - (Oskar): Thank you so much. Bye bye.
0:34:46 - (Nicole): What an amazing conversation. I just cannot imagine the pressure that you must feel when you have someone's life future in your hands. That your expertise and your knowledge and everything that you've worked up to towards that point is going to help that person figure out a way forward through the criminal justice system and for your family to see that as well. Knowing that that's the kind of pressure that you're under and to know that giving you a hug at the end of the day is the greatest gift.
0:35:16 - (Oskar): You can possibly give.
0:35:17 - (Nicole): I am frankly in awe of people like Laura, both prosecutors and defence lawyers who go into work day in and day out and try to get the best outcomes for us as a society through the law. It's an extraordinary vocation. It's an extraordinary thing to dedicate your life to. What an amazing conversation. Like I said in the intro, we will have a bonus episode with Laura later in the season so you can look forward to hearing more about what Laura has to say about the law and answering the questions that our Facebook community has put to her.
0:35:54 - (Laura): So look forward to that and look.
0:35:57 - (Nicole): Forward to chatting to you next week.
0:35:59 - (Nicole): Talk to you then. Bring your kid to work was recorded in mean on the lands of the jaggera and Turable, people who've been sharing their stories for more than 60,000 years. Thanks for listening to another episode of bring your kid to work. If you haven't already, make sure you give us a review on your podcast player of choice. It helps other people find the show and follow bring your kid to work and subscribe wherever you're listening now and send your favorite episode to a friend.
0:36:28 - (Nicole): These stories are too good to keep to ourselves. And don't forget to follow us on Instagram and TikTok at bring your kid to work and on Facebook at bring your kid to work the podcast and did you know? You can join the conversation join bring your kid to work career conversations community on Facebook for great career tips and conversations about the journey of work, workplace culture, and parenting while working.
0:36:51 - (Nicole): We're always looking for inspiring guests to be a part of our show. If you have a fab idea for a guest, drop us a line at admin@bringyourkidowork.com.Au or dm us through the socials. We would love to hear from you. Thanks again for listening. Bring your kid to work is a lioness media production. This episode was produced and edited by me, Nicole Lessio. Our music is composed by Rukkuo with graphics and design by Anastasia Makkuhka.
0:37:20 - (Nicole): Follow bring your kid to work on your podcast player and all the socials, and visit bringyourkidowork.com to see our blog transcripts from our episodes, and to sign up to our newsletter off for the latest updates. Talk to you soon. Close.
