Episode Ten - The Counsellor

0:00:00 - (Nicole): Bring Your Kid to Work is being recorded in Meeanjin and we acknowledge and pay our respects to the Yuggera and Turrbl people as the traditional custodians of the land and waters on which we learn, work and play. And we extend our respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples.

It's time to Bring Your Kid To Work. Hey, everyone, it's time to Bring Your Kid To Work.

It's the family podcast that explores the world of work through the eyes, parents and their kids. Each week, we interview one parent and their child to chat about what they do for work, what they like, what they don't like and how they got there in the first place.

Let's find out who we're talking to today.

Our guests today are Carolyn and her grown up daughter, Hannah. Carolyn Twiggs is a counsellor who, along with the founder Jackie Dean, runs the Stem program at Burnside High School. STEMM stands for supporting teenagers with Education, mothering, and mentoring.

0:00:56 - (Nicole): Carolyn's a facilitator of the Circle of Security parenting and circle of Security classroom programs. She's been counseling for over 20 years, and she loves helping young people set themselves and their kids up for success. She brings with her her grownup kid, Hannah. Hannah is a communication specialist who works for one of Australia's biggest providers of health and aged care. These two are quite the dynamic duo, and I loved our conversation.

0:01:24 - (Nicole): I know you will, too. So let's get on with the show. Welcome to bring your kid to work. This episode is called The Counselor, and I'm really excited to welcome two very special guests, and I will get them to introduce themselves, starting with our youngest guest.

0:01:39 - (Hannah): My name is Hannah. I'm 29 years old, nearly 30, which is crazy. I work at St. Vincent's Health Australia as a comms advisor. Live in Brisbane. Loving life. And I'm here with my lovely mum.

0:01:53 - (Nicole): Excellent. And who's your mum?

0:01:55 - (Hannah): My mum is Carolyn, the counsellor.

0:01:58 - (Nicole): The counsellor. Carolyn, welcome.

0:02:00 - (Carolyn): Thank you.

0:02:01 - (Nicole): So, you're a counsellor, but not off the local government variety.

0:02:06 - (Carolyn): Oh, no.

0:02:07 - (Nicole): Not to be confused.

0:02:08 - (Carolyn): Therapy variety.

0:02:09 - (Nicole): More of the therapist? Yes. Okay. There you go. So, Hannah, what does your mum do all day as a counsellor?

0:02:15 - (Hannah): Goodness. Mum talks to well, first of all, she works at a place called STEMM, which helps mothering and pregnant teenagers, helping them get back into the education system and empowering them to, I guess, get education again, how to look after their children as well. But Mum works on the counseling side, going through any issues, any problems, and helping them become the best, I guess, mother they can be and get the support they really need as well, whether it's through their partner, through their family unit. But Mum works with a lot of very young women who are probably very scared going through this time, and she acts as their support network to get them through that very difficult stage.

0:02:55 - (Nicole): And so what does that involve? Does that involve your mum going and visiting people in their houses? Does it involve your mum sitting in an office chatting to them?

0:03:03 - (Hannah): So the STEMM program is at Burnside State School, which is in Nambour. My mum works in an office in there and it's through the school, so the girls can come and visit Mum directly and talk to her in that safe space about everything that's happening. And they can also bring their kids there where they can go to crash, and they can also do courses in that area as well. So they can do TAFE, they can do teaching. So it kind of offers lots of facilities, offers a lot, but Mum looks after the counseling part of that.

0:03:33 - (Nicole): Wow. Carolyn, did she do a good job of explaining?

0:03:38 - (Carolyn): She did really well. So, yes, it's an alternate education program, brings young women back into education, but I look after the mental health side of it. So there's two arms to that programme. There's education arm and there's a mothering arm. And that encompasses mental health counselling involved in that, parenting groups, relationship groups. We have Queensland Health involved, so we've got midwives and a doctor that actually come on site. So it's a real wraparound service, but it allows them then it'll also to engage back in some sort of alternate education.

0:04:08 - (Nicole): Okay, so teenagers who might find that they're pregnant often will end up just not going to school anymore.

0:04:15 - (Carolyn): Absolutely.

0:04:16 - (Nicole): They're worried about what other people might think of them.

0:04:18 - (Carolyn): Absolutely. It's how this program actually started. So I started with the founder of the program. My colleague was pregnant, she's a school teacher with her third child. She was pregnant with a third child and she had a student in year eight who was pregnant at the same time. And what she noticed was while her pregnancy was being celebrated, the student's pregnancy was not. They didn't know, the school clearly wouldn't know how to deal with that. And so that young student's path was to leave school because it just doesn't cater for young pregnant teenagers. I did some training with her and she said, oh, I'm thinking of opening up this alternate education program, but offering some wraparound support for these young mums and to get them back in. And she said, you want to come on board and you can do the mental health side? And I said, absolutely, let's do it. So it's grown from there, started with twelve young girls and it's gosh our average is probably about 25 to 30. Now we've got a waitlist.

0:05:10 - (Nicole): Really? Wow.

0:05:11 - (Carolyn): Yeah.

0:05:12 - (Nicole): That's amazing. Yeah. Because we know that going to school and learning is actually really key to being a successful adult. Right?

0:05:20 - (Carolyn): Absolutely.

0:05:20 - (Nicole): So making sure that these girls can still go to school, it's huge.

0:05:24 - (Carolyn): It's really breaking that generational welfare cycle. And I'm in awe of them to walk through the door they're pregnant or have babies at such a young age to want to do something different and get off the system and after their families. We need more programs at this rolled out, we are the only program that has the education and wraparound services in the state. There's educational programs and there are programs that help mothers in their mental health, but not one that's actually combined.

0:05:52 - (Nicole): Well. There you go. So it's amazing to be able to do that all in the same place and in an environment that they're used to, which is school.

0:05:59 - (Carolyn): Yes.

0:05:59 - (Nicole): And being able to do that so that people can keep going with their education. Is that something that you thought when you were little, I'm going to be a counselor, looking after teenagers who are pregnant or have babies?

0:06:10 - (Carolyn): Oh, no. Absolutely not.

0:06:13 - (Hannah): What did you want to do when you were little?

0:06:15 - (Carolyn): I actually wanted to be a translator.

0:06:16 - (Hannah): There you go. Yes, that was really good.

0:06:19 - (Carolyn): Languages, picking up languages, but that didn't happen that way. I almost fell into this as I traveled a lot, and we moved when the children were small to the Middle East. I was juggling some work. I was doing some secretarial work, teach swimming. I was teaching swimming to kids and adults. And then I just noticed this gap. And we had some expatriate families that were struggling. And I always had really, some interest in psychology and just going back to education and getting myself educated and qualified just to look at that field. I wasn't sure where that was going to go, and that's what I did. And it just started that way and qualified, and I did some distance ed, and I started counseling expat women. That's where I started.

0:07:01 - (Carolyn): And then as we traveled, I just grew from there. But actually, the young people started here in Australia when we came to Australia.

0:07:07 - (Nicole): Well, there you go. So for those people who are listening, who go, what's an expat? What is an expat?

0:07:13 - (Hannah): So I guess an expat is an anselmist, in my experience, are those who move from one place to another, not permanently, maybe for a period of time. So you're not a native of the country or it's your home, but you stay for a certain period of time, then you move on to the next place. And it's great to learn about new cultures, meet new people, but you don't stay in the one spot.

0:07:33 - (Nicole): Yeah. And so that can be quite an upheaval for people. So being able to counsel them, that makes a lot of sense.

0:07:37 - (Carolyn): Yes, absolutely.

0:07:39 - (Nicole): And so if you wanted to be a translator, were you learning a language?

0:07:43 - (Carolyn): I learned French, but it wasn't something that I pursued after school. I literally, from school, went straight into work, and that was just to start working. I was secretary, so I started I did a business diploma, and I just went straight into work.

0:07:58 - (Nicole): Right. And was that your first job as a secretary? It was right?

0:08:01 - (Carolyn): Yes. I just left at school at 17 and then I went to college, did the diploma and yeah, then I started work at 18.

0:08:08 - (Nicole): There you go. Hannah, what was your first job?

0:08:11 - (Hannah): My first job at 14 was working at the markets, making waffles, Belgian waffles. So lots of different flavors. I used to work Saturdays and Sundays with one of my best friends, Dads, and we'd go out there in the morning pretty early and we'd make waffles, and I'd think I'd get $30, maybe $20, and I'd usually spend it all at the market on food. I was going to say bring it back.

0:08:33 - (Nicole): Just buy lots of waffles.

0:08:34 - (Hannah): Just lots of I got free waffles, which was also part of the pay. It was great, but that was my first job, was working in the markets, actually.

0:08:42 - (Nicole): And when you were little, before you were 14 and being a waffle maker, what was the thing that you thought you were going to do when you grew up?

0:08:49 - (Hannah): I think a part of me always wanted to be a writer. I always used to write little short stories, aka two pages long, for Mum and dad to read through. I used to bind them, I used to do the artwork on the front cover and give them Mum and dad.

0:09:03 - (Carolyn): For their esteemed review.

0:09:04 - (Hannah): But I always wanted to be a writer or an author, really write a novel, write my own book. I think at one stage it was a vet.

0:09:09 - (Nicole): Vet.

0:09:10 - (Hannah): I really loved animals as well, so there were two ways I could have gone. But I think I dropped the vet thing quite quickly and realized I just really loved writing stories.

0:09:20 - (Nicole): Yeah. And so in your job that you do right now, is that something you do?

0:09:24 - (Hannah): Yeah, well, I work in the communications field and a bit of marketing as well, so definitely a lot of writing involved there. I think just a different type of writing, so potentially not as creative as I would like. However, it is great to work on lots of different initiatives, especially for St. Vincent health, and work out what I like to write about and what I'm promoting, and working with stakeholders and understanding their voice and putting that into a piece of work.

0:09:53 - (Nicole): Because communication isn't just telling someone something, it's actually trying to make sure that they understand the thing that you're putting out in the world. Is that right?

0:10:00 - (Hannah): Exactly. And it's a balancing act of making sure we get the message out there, but we're not over communicating, so they switch off. They have to be engaged. They need to understand why we're communicating with them and what's in it for them. So why are we doing this for them? Why are we reaching out to them and also moving from looking at our audience? So we've got a lot of nurses and clinicians on the ground. They might not be on their computer as often, or phone as often. How do we communicate with them when they've got a five minute break in between their shifts? How do we get the message out to them versus someone who's always on their computer?

0:10:32 - (Hannah): All they're looking at is other emails and digital versions of our messages. So lots of balancing there.

0:10:38 - (Nicole): It sounds like it. That sounds like a very important and challenging job.

0:10:43 - (Hannah): Definitely.

0:10:44 - (Nicole): And your mum's job sounds like a very important and challenging job.

0:10:47 - (Hannah): It is.

0:10:48 - (Nicole): Does she like it?

0:10:51 - (Hannah): I think there are moments where it can be quite challenging. I do remember when Mum first started. I think separating the work and bringing it home was a bit challenging. So especially if you had a very emotional or long day or a difficult time trying to separate the emotions from that when you're coming home and disconnecting from it and leaving it in that room. I remember seeing that because Mum would take it home and think about it and a lot. It was a bit hard. But I think you've also had some really beautiful stories and beautiful outcomes from the girls as well, and that you've made a difference and you've helped them. I'd say yes and no. It's been a journey.

0:11:28 - (Carolyn): That's been a journey.

0:11:30 - (Hannah): Yes.

0:11:30 - (Carolyn): That's definitely a good way to put it.

0:11:32 - (Nicole): So you wanted to bring everybody home with you, I'm guessing.

0:11:35 - (Carolyn): Yeah. It would have made their lives a lot easier.

0:11:37 - (Nicole): Yes.

0:11:38 - (Carolyn): If they could have had some stability, I think. But, yes, it was definitely challenging. It took some time to learn, and that's part of the job. You've got to learn to leave that at the door when you come home because you have another life.

0:11:49 - (Nicole): Yeah.

0:11:50 - (Carolyn): But, yes, there were some challenges there, but yes, equally, some very rewarding when you see we have the girls generally with us for about a two year period. So when you see how well they've come and progressed, to be able to send them on their way into the outside world again in a different headspace is really rewarding.

0:12:08 - (Nicole): Yeah. So on a really great day at work, what would that look like? What's a great day at work look like, Carolyn?

0:12:14 - (Carolyn): Oh, gee. That's a really good question. It's not about happiness at the end of the day. It's not about everyone feeling happy and jovial. It's more about being able to for me, probably, what a good day at work would be. Having someone come in that is possibly really distressed, that has had a challenging night, whatever that may look like, with their partners or with their children, and just being able to hear them, for them to be able to work and work out where they need to go, possibly from there for that day and just to see their headspace shift a little bit.

0:12:50 - (Carolyn): For me, that's a good day. When you can see a little bit of movement or just almost a relaxing of shoulders, even. That's a good day. For me.

0:12:58 - (Nicole): Yeah. Because being a parent is really hard.

0:13:01 - (Carolyn): Really hard.

0:13:02 - (Nicole): And it's hard enough when you're a grown up already.

0:13:04 - (Carolyn): Yes.

0:13:05 - (Nicole): And I can imagine it's super hard when you're not a grown up yet.

0:13:09 - (Carolyn): Yes. And for a majority of these young women, they don't have the family's support necessarily, and they don't necessarily have good role models in their lives. So there's no compass, really, for them as to how that they want that to look. Some do, but majority don't. Unfortunately.

0:13:24 - (Nicole): Yes. It's challenging.

0:13:25 - (Carolyn): And then you throw a little baby into the mix. Yeah. Just being able to give them an alternate experience about what attachment looks like.

0:13:31 - (Nicole): So what does that mean, attachment? I feel like it's something that I put on an email.

0:13:35 - (Hannah): Yes.

0:13:37 - (Nicole): Well, actually, I forget to put on an email, and then my computer says, are you so supposed to have attached something? So what do you mean with parenting? What does attachment mean?

0:13:45 - (Carolyn): So it's how we do the relationship with our child, and it's about how we look at behaviors. It's not looking at the behavior, it's looking at what's underneath that behavior. It's all about connection.

0:13:57 - (Nicole): Yeah.

0:13:57 - (Carolyn): That's all people really are trying to do, is connect. And people do that in very different ways.

0:14:02 - (Nicole): Yeah. Or they try it in different ways. And sometimes it doesn't work quite the.

0:14:05 - (Carolyn): Right way, sometimes it's quite challenging, it's difficult. And you automatically, through your own experiences, can be triggered by some of the things that we are being presented with. So it's having an understanding, and that's what attachment is about. Having an understanding about what that looks like and looking at behaviors and how we address things with our children or other relationships through a different lens.

0:14:26 - (Nicole): Yeah. Because I know that if I am hungry, my behavior really changes.

0:14:33 - (Hannah): I get hangry angry.

0:14:35 - (Nicole): So do I. And that happens with little kids, too. And so as a parent, it's really hard when your little kid is misbehaving and then you go, wait a minute, they need a banana. Yes.

0:14:45 - (Carolyn): That's really one way to simplify it. Absolutely.

0:14:48 - (Nicole): Yeah. And so, Hannah, does that mean that since your mum studies parenting and how to attach and all of these great theories, that she's the best mum in the whole wide world? Absolutely.

0:14:58 - (Carolyn): You answer that ten out of ten.

0:15:01 - (Nicole): She's the best mom you've ever.

0:15:04 - (Hannah): Great. She's a fantastic mom. I think because Mum has that counseling background, I think we've always had also a bit more open communication, because it's don't be wrong now and again, I've had to say, Mum, take your counseling hat off, let's have a chat. But the fact is, I know that I can always go, and I still do at 29, go to Mum first for advice, to talk, because there's no judgment. There's never been any judgment. There's always been an open communication with both of us.

0:15:32 - (Hannah): And Mum understands it because she's also worked with so many different people. I feel like hopefully nothing I tell her is going to shock her too much. But Mum's always, I think, always been there and always been open with, you can come to me with whatever you need and want to talk about. I'm here. Yeah, for me, that's what a great parent looks like. They don't need to do much else.

0:15:54 - (Carolyn): Than just be there and feed you.

0:15:57 - (Hannah): Feed us good as know, that's always important.

0:16:03 - (Nicole): I was asking your mum this, but on a great day at work for you, Hannah, what does that look like?

0:16:07 - (Hannah): Oh, great question. What I like about my job is every day is very, very different. So I think when something comes my way that is a bit different and it's a new initiative, and I get to interview people or talk to people and get their personal experiences, and I get to craft a story, so I get to put a bit more of creative flair into it. And that's my main task. That really makes my day. And then the feedback I get as well from that or from other pieces, people saying, thank you for writing my story or doing that profile piece on me, or talking about our patients or residents, they had this to say, it meant a lot being seen, so that's always a really great day for me.

0:16:46 - (Hannah): And I think also on the stickier part, when you have a massive outage or a cybersecurity issue or those crises where it seems very overwhelming, but you get through it and you do it and you have a good outcome and it's sent out and you tick that box and we did everything we could. That also feels a bit of accomplishment after it because it's a challenge and you hit it head on. But I love gathering experiences and personal opinions from people and trying to craft stories that way for the healthcare organisation, whether it's aged care or hospital, I love it.

0:17:18 - (Nicole): The both of you like to hear people's stories by the sounds of things and help people along their way. I like that. Bit of a parallel. What makes a good job, do you think, hannah I feel like my opinion.

0:17:28 - (Hannah): On it has changed over the years. I think when I was young it was money and maybe making sure the role title was right, but then as I've gotten older, it's the team having a good culture, having support and having colleagues that you can really mesh with and bounce ideas off and feel supported and have a positive outlook makes all the difference. Work life balance. Absolutely. For me, I don't think you can have a job where you are 300% passionate about it. You'd love it every single day.

0:18:02 - (Hannah): I'd love to think there was maybe a little cynical, but having at least some passion points, I like to call it in your job where you can go, well, I love writing and I get to write and I get to do this and I get to do the things that I do love. May not every day, but some days or most days, so that's really important. But it's people, right? It's people you work with. I think if you don't have a supportive manager or great colleagues, then you could have the highest paying job in the world, but what's the point?

0:18:28 - (Nicole): Yeah, I think that really is a great explanation of what a good job is. And Carolyn, on a day where perhaps it wasn't the best day, what's the way that you get around that or make yourself feel better, ready for the next day. So what do you do when you get home from a not so great day?

0:18:44 - (Carolyn): Yeah, I do some good self care. My dog does a lot of self care with me. I try very hard. If it has been a particularly bad day. Yes, I try and distance, so I know I've got to leave it there, but if I do, I come home, massage. A massage for me, a Thai massage for me is if I needed that self care. I'm very aware of when I need it and I'm feeling a bit burnt out or that I'm at a bit of a low ebb. So come home from work and I don't answer my phone, I don't want to talk to anybody, and I just zone out. It's just a zoning out time for me. If I'm feeling a bit burnt out, I'll go and have a massage, but my dog is always there to greet me.

0:19:20 - (Carolyn): They do wonders, actually.

0:19:22 - (Nicole): Yes, they do.

0:19:22 - (Carolyn): Just being able to hug and pat and talk to about nothing important is just wonderful. Yes, that's what I do.

0:19:30 - (Nicole): And of course, work isn't our whole life. No, work is a part of our life. So what else do you love? Because obviously you speak very passionately about your job. We know that you love your job even when it's hard. But what else is there that you love in your life, Carolyn?

0:19:45 - (Carolyn): Well, my family is not my number one. For me, it's always about if I can doing things with the family, so just being able to get together because the children are longer at home, have time to have lunch or a dinner, spend time with my husband, go and do really simple things, go and have a walk. I love to walk, so I love just getting out there and if it's a beautiful day, go and find a mountain to climb or go have a walk. That for me. But my family, it's about being with my kids, if they're around and we're able to do that. Yes.

0:20:14 - (Nicole): And what about you, Hannah? Have you got Hobies or things that you love that aren't your work life?

0:20:19 - (Hannah): I love to read, so I read lots of books as much as I can. And same thing. Hang out with my husband, Harrison, watch TV shows go to the movies and hanging out. Same family and friends. I love hanging out with my friends and doing new things and trying new things. So those are a few parts on board games. Me and my husband are big on board games, so we will play as many board games.

0:20:43 - (Nicole): I like that idea. Like I said, work isn't your whole life, it's a part of your life. But you had to do some work to get to where you are. Why do you think you ended up being in the job that you're in? Hannah, what led you to get into Communications, do you think?

0:21:00 - (Hannah): I think what's interesting actually, is when I was first going into university and deciding what I wanted to do, I was actually quite set on Law, so I went to their open Day, had a look at Law, scared immediately, wasn't sure it was for me. It just seemed quite intense. But they were also running a comms and journalism Open day as well. So I went there and I just loved it. I just fell in love with it immediately.

0:21:23 - (Hannah): And I actually thought I was going to be a journalist for a long time. So I was set that I was going to be on the ABC and I was going to report some really incredible stories internationally, and that was going to be my role. And I just chose a random major PR. It was like, you know, I thought, oh, just tack that on. And I actually fell in love with PR and I really enjoyed it. I started out as a journalist, actually didn't love it as much as I thought I would. And everything now is digital.

0:21:47 - (Hannah): It's run very differently. And then I got into PR after that. Really actually enjoyed crafting stories. Seeing my story out there, it's like a form of journalism, right? Just the other way around. But then I wanted I started learning about SEO and marketing and lots more, and I found that comms kind of in encompassed a lot of that. You didn't have to pigeonhole yourself to one speciality or one area.

0:22:10 - (Hannah): So I think when I was offered a guy I worked with, my first job, he moved into St. Vincent's Health and said you do so much more than just PR - I think you’d be great. And I loved it.